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New 360 Games Checks and what it means

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reno.99999 avatar
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 19:00
Thought it would be easier to post a topic, as always if you have any additional questions you can PM me but thought with the amount of PM's I'm getting it would be good in a forum post, so everyone can read responses. I will try an answer anything I can.

The three games in question so far are Hasbro Family Night, Fable 3, and Asassian Brotherhood. So far these are the only games that are using AP2.5 checks. AP has been around but always at 2.0. As of yet the only way to test one is to try and load it, which will get you flagged (most think). Firmware to correct this is supposedly finished and is going to be tested this weekend, so we could see a fix by the end of the week I think. As soon as this is done I think you will see the firmware for the "slim" to come out as well. Most everyone thought that it would be after the new year due to ban wave like in years past, but seems like maybe the ban wave is not going around like it used to and M$ is using the new checks to combat piracy. In any case all we can do is wait. The good news is some lucky peeps will be able to run the new games without anything, if you have a samsung drive and some hitachis you are in luck because there is no code for it to check for AP, so you can give it a try. If not get ready to flash your drive again.

What kind of drive do I have:


Updates from team-xecuter and efnet network, #fw for the channel:
Chat Logs
[2010-11-10 04:16] <******> how's the ps3 blue-ray firmware comming along?
[2010-11-10 04:17] <c4eva> ******:will look at that when finished here, got sidetracked!
[2010-11-10 04:17] <*********> c4eva have ms tried to shaft us big time this time with ap 2.5?? titally new f/w??
[2010-11-10 04:19] <c4eva> *********:no
[2010-11-10 04:22] <*********> c4eva have you any news on lt+ for us today?
[2010-11-10 04:24] <c4eva> host supplied checks was always the holy grail for them as they know we control the fw and cant see
[2010-11-10 04:26] <*********> C4, exactly how many new checks are involved in the new AP2.5?
[2010-11-10 04:27] <*********> and what sorts of things are they checking?
[2010-11-10 04:27] <c4eva> 13 unique ones so far!
[2010-11-10 04:28] <*********> so you think there could be more than 13... :-|
[2010-11-10 04:30] <c4eva> *****:yes, i would think so, too easy to overcome otherwise!
[2010-11-10 04:32] <********> c4eva can FW+ detect unknown checks?
[2010-11-10 04:32] <c4eva> there are other checks just for slim, so more work for that one!
[2010-11-10 04:32] <******> C4eva, would it be possible to for Microsoft to run ap2.5 checks remotely at anytime?
[2010-11-10 04:33] <c4eva> lt+ will cater for any ap2.5 challenge!
[2010-11-10 04:37] <******> C4eva, out of the slims how many fw versions are there and how many look positive to create CFW's currently?
[2010-11-10 04:41] <c4eva> slim, 2 fw versions so far, they went to great lengths to hide drive key in 0225!no matter!
[2010-11-10 04:38] <c4eva> lt+ eta - when its done and tested with more titles!
[2010-11-10 04:39] <c4eva> no ap2.5 checks seen on older games so far, only fable 3, testing the water with that title!
[2010-11-10 04:48] <********> c4eva, any info in you collaboration with demonhades on ps3 fw
[2010-11-10 04:48] <c4eva> ps3 fw comes next after all this!
[2010-11-10 04:49] <******> will the ps3 fw do the exact same thing as the xbox fw? right now there is already homebrew out to run games off hard drive
[2010-11-10 04:51] <c4eva> ****:yes you cant play on psn with jailbreak
[2010-11-10 04:55] <*******> C4eva can you please verify one thing, is the only relatively unsafe rip Fable, or have you spotted any other newer releases
[2010-11-10 04:56] <c4eva> only fable so far but thats not to say a new title might have ap2.5!
[2010-11-10 05:05] <c4eva> first benq and fat liteons, then comes slim!
[2010-11-10 05:06] <c4eva> further progress has been made, all good so far!

[2010-11-13 06:39PM] <******> it'll work for any AP2.5 challenge he said
[2010-11-13 08:11PM] <*****> c4eva fable3 and asasin have same ap25 checks ?
[2010-11-13 08:12PM] <c4eva> ap25 checks are game specific
[2010-11-13 08:12PM] <*********> c4eva do u know why samsung does not have ap2.5 >
[2010-11-13 08:12PM] <c4eva> because it doesnt have the code for it
[2010-11-13 08:13PM] <******> c4eva, AP2.5 - thats a name you came up with or does it show in the dash binary somehow ?
[2010-11-13 08:13PM] <******> that's what the specification is actually called, ******
[2010-11-13 08:13PM] <*********> c4eva, i suppose we will need new software/hardware aswell, to dump the new sectors and inject them in iso ?
[2010-11-13 08:14PM] <******> ******, specification that came from MS to game developers ?
[2010-11-13 08:14PM] <*****> New 0800 and xbc would be liky
[2010-11-13 08:14PM] <*****> Likely
[2010-11-13 08:14PM] <c4eva> yes
[2010-11-13 08:16PM] <****> c4eva, so if ap2.5 is game specific. Could ms implement new checks with an update and render the new drive FW useless again ?
[2010-11-13 08:18PM] <c4eva> ****:fw will be fine
[2010-11-13 08:19PM] <*******> c4eva original slim now can be updated to new firmware and after that it can be LT+ flashed with no problem?
[2010-11-13 08:20PM] <*********> how do you dump and test ap25 games for now? is it a secre?
[2010-11-13 08:20PM] <c4eva> *******:yes
[2010-11-13 08:20PM] <c4eva> *********:yes
[2010-11-13 08:32PM] <*********> <+c4eva> thanks for all your hard work man, we love you. Maybe consider putting out a non-LIVE version of the FW for those that dont care about LIVE. It would have to be easier on ou.
[2010-11-13 08:32PM] <*****> C4s always been committed to stealth
[2010-11-13 08:33PM] <*****> And im
[2010-11-13 08:33PM] <*****> Sure he is busy enough
[2010-11-13 08:33PM] <c4eva> ap25, live or no live, doesnt matter
[2010-11-13 08:35PM] <*********> my fable 3 doesnt show AP25 in ABGX???
[2010-11-13 08:36PM] <******> *********: Fable III doesn't have that flag
[2010-11-13 08:38PM] <c4eva> with new dash xex flag is irrelevant!
[2010-11-13 08:38PM] <******> yeah, so that becomes an unreliable method to determine

160.[2010-11-14 04:01PM] <c4eva> testing code, so far so good!
161.[2010-11-14 04:08PM] <******> is black ops as safe as any other game before the dash update?
162.[2010-11-14 04:09PM] <c4eva> ******:yes
163.[2010-11-14 04:19PM] <***> for slim what kind of real time checks are we talking about?
164.[2010-11-14 04:19PM] <c4eva> ***:realtime fw check,realtime ram check!
165.[2010-11-14 04:25PM] <c4eva> they are checking for our code/data in drive!
166.[2010-11-14 XX:XXXX] <*********> c4 can we expect lt+ this side of christmas?
167.[2010-11-14 XX:XXXX] <c4eva> *********:yes

(just posted on scenyx)

Exclamation C4Eva iXtreme LT+ 21-11-2010 Updates
Latest updates about the upcoming iXtreme LT+ modified DVD FW from C4Eva on [email protected] (IRC-transcripts):

[******] does anythign special need done to AP 2.5 isos before burning
[c4eva] ******:yes, they will need the new ap25 ss for lt+
[******] So with the new dash just having the flash will put you at risk even if the copy of the game is the original
[c4eva] ******:orig is fine
[******] +c4eva: i know you may not know the answer, or may not even want to answer this. But, do you think we will need to do a hardware mod (cut traces etc) for slim drives, including 0225? there are a few$
[c4eva] ******:0225 is special!
[*******] c4eva: benq lt+ will be out same time as liteon one?
[c4eva] *******:yes
[c4eva] liteon will be finished today and be given to testers!
[***] c4eva: beta testing wont be as lenghty as for lt will it?
[c4eva] no
[*****] just wondering if the ap 2.5 only on thoses games with that dash or any game tryin to boot with that dash
[c4eva] *****:only those 3 games so far! [note x-s: Fable 3, Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood and Need For Speed:Hot Pursuit]
[c4eva] new abgx will verify ap25 ss!
[******] you know, you could just not care about XBL, then ap25 has no effect on you =D
[c4eva] ******:if on latest dash,ap25 will still stop backups working offline!
[*******] will new 0800 firmware support samsung-ms25/28?
[c4eva] *******:not to begin with!
[*******] c4 can i swap my liteon for a sammy and play ap 2.5 games i dont care about banning
[c4eva] *******:no, need liteon lt+!
[********] c4eva: Any complications with LT+ testing so far?
[c4eva] ********:none!
[*********] c4eva, is Jungleflasher where you want your donations to go?
[c4eva] *********:yes
[********] c4eva: Anything to expect in a near future for the lite-on found in the Slim units?
[c4eva] ********:havent worked on slim for awhile, thats next!
[c4eva] its all good,sooner rather than later!
[******] LT+ working great -- just played AC:B -- XVal still clean!
[c4eva] great to hear, ******!
[******] What fw is in testing atm c4eva? liteon, benq... ? all?
[c4eva] liteons, benqs!
[c4eva] just a few things more to test!
[*******] c4eva, have there been any changes to LT+ besides from the antipiracy stuff?
[c4eva] *******:yes, some major code changes!
[****] c4eva, does the new slims require additional hardware to flash?
[c4eva] ****:orig slim no
[*********] so if you are already banned and have lt+, you don't have to use ap2.5 ss right?
[c4eva] *********biggrin.gifo you want the ap25 backups to boot?
[c4eva] banned or not,if on latest dash,you need it
[****] what is the difference in this XBOX360 Fable.III.AP25.READNFO.XBOX360-iND and the one we already had, just says tested working
[******] the new rls contains the ap25 ss
[*********] [c4eva] once m$ have pushed the button on a slim 225 can you still flash the drive
[c4eva] *********:yes
[*********] [c4eva] so if m$ has pushed the button on your slim 0255 will that stop us reading the data eg key and so off if
[c4eva] *********:no
[******] +c4eva: 0225 locked flash... Is that stock? or does the lock happen when drive is detached/connected to a pc etc...?
[c4eva] ******:stock
[*****] c4eva: old games with wave 6 with ssv2 is it safe to play on LT+ ?
[c4eva] *****:yes,lt+ will protect you from ap25 violation ie wont happen
[c4eva] ssv2 to ssv3 was changed to ssv2+ap25 ss to accomodate more ap25 data if needed!
[******] c4eva: Is it possible for a your software to unlock flash for 0225? (i think i'm asking too much here :p)
[c4eva] lt+ will protect you from ap25 violation ie wont log any violation!
[******] is it possible they add additional ap checks?
[******] that the fw doesnt know how to handle
[******] or would that require another update
[c4eva] in all cases ,lt+ will protect you from ap25 violation
[c4eva] ******:more time will be spent on 0225 when I have it!
[*****] +c4eva is there a 0800 updated firmware in the making for our drives to rip games with our PC's?
[c4eva] *****:team is working on it
[*****] c4eva, how confident are you that you could do some good with the ps3fw ?
[c4eva] *****:confident
[*********] Will lt+ allow games to run, even without ssv3. Or will they need rerippin. i don't us xbl so stealth isn't an issue for me.
[c4eva] *********:you will need ap25 ss still!
[***] any news on doing the slim drives
[c4eva] 9504 first,0225 later!
[****] ****** how long have you been playing LT+ online?
[******] several hours
[*********] What I still don't understand though, will you be able to create 'ssv3' from games that aren't ap2.5 atm, such as Black Ops? I mean i'd rather have ssv3 BO if possible, just in case a TU makes it ap2.5, or am I talking shizzle?
[******] played NFS for a few hrs yesterday and today, and AC:B
[c4eva] *********:lt+ will protect you anyway from ap25 violation anyway!
[c4eva] i moved ssv3 into ap25 ss, left ssv2 alone!
[c4eva] ssv2+ap25ss=ssv3 basically
[******] c4eva, ssv3 will released into abgx 360 datebase?
[c4eva] new abgx will support ap25ss
[*********] is the beta testing going as planned?..ni hiccups right?
[*********] no^
[c4eva] *********:none
[*****] c4eva, does our profile gpd's have any info written to them that flags the 360 for a ban or is it pourely the 360's NAND only?
[*****] i mean prior lt+
[c4eva] *****:there are better people to ask than me about that, but nand is the main target
[******] when will come LT+?
[c4eva] more testing is being done across regions, then good to go!
[********] so whats with the ap2.5 copy of fableIII that just par'd
[c4eva] it has ap25 ss included and tested with lt+ i'd assume!
[*****] so this was real? [==== http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I5zGCgJQcc...player_embedded
[c4eva] *****:yes
[*****] c4eva have you looked at the SOny Blu-ray drives enough (as in for a long enough time) to notice if Sony are a little less cautious than MS is with their DVD drives?
[c4eva] *****:i have looked at them, obviously they are more advanced!
What is AP 2.5 ???
Explanation of ap2.5 - what it is and what it isn't
Q: What IS ap2.5?
A: Ap2.5 (antipiracy 2.5), essentially, is a bunch of checks the 360 performs on the disk to ensure that it's legitimate. The current/old system was ap2.0.
Essentially, these are a bunch of challenges the 360 performs and the responses from the drive will indicate if the disk is legitimate or not. With ap2.0, iXtreme LT made use of the ss.bin file to fake the correct responses. This ss.bin was known as either SSv1 or SSv2, with SSv2 being a more secure version.
In order to combat ap2.5, additional challenge responses will be required, this will come in the form of SSv3.
So far, only certain newer games have been ap2.5, with no indication that older games will ever be affected by this (and if this is true, updating to the new dash and running older games that are properly stealthed should be fine), HOWEVER this could also change at any point. Ap2.5 is not something "on the disk", but rather something in the dashboard and drive firmware. Currently, all this is being tested and researched so the above information is not to be taken as gospel and may change at any time.


Q: What drives are affected by this?
A: Samsung drives do not have ap2.5, nor do some "old" hitachis. So the affected drives are mainly Liteons, BenQs and some Hitachi drives.

Q: So what does that mean for us Samsung users?
A: Essentially, nothing. The drive itself is incapable of utilising ap2.5, so future ap2.5 titles should boot just fine on the current iXtreme LT.

Q: I don't have a Samsung drive, can I spoof one?
A: Of course you can, but this will be detected and you will be banned.

Q: Wasn't Fifa 09 an ap2.5 game?
A: No, this is a misunderstanding that is still spreading to this day.
There is a flag inside the XEX (Executable) of every Xbox360 game that indicates if it is ap2.5. This flag is exactly this - a flag (a yes/no or true/false), it has nothing to do with the actual ap2.5 operation. There was a bug in a program called XeXTool which made it look as though Fifa 09's XEX had been updated to set this ap2.5 flag as "true", however this was not actually the case. Fifa 09 falls under the category of "old/non-ap2.5" title. The first known game to have ap2.5 was Fable III and it's ap2.5 flag was NOT set, so it would appear as though this flag is not actually being used anyway.

Q: c4eva says the update is safe, can I update my 360 and play backup games?
A: What c4eva said is that the actual update process is safe (no special checks are done to detect if your drive has been modified while the update is being applied), however this does not necessarily mean that the additioanl ap2.5 checks wont flag you for a ban. Assuming that only newer games are ap2.5, then theoretically, you should be able to update and still play those games, but attempting to play an ap2.5 game will almost certainly get you flagged for a ban. Currently, there's no way to tell if a game is ap2.5 or not before booting it.

Q: I heard that Wave 7 games are ap2.5, is this true?
A: The "Wave" has absolutely nothing to do with ap2.5. All the wave patching in the world will not change this as they are two mutually exclusive things. If you're one of those people that needs to "patch" a games wave in order to play it, it's time to update your firmware (in fact, it was time to update your firmware over a year ago) as you wont be able to play ap2.5 games on the new dashboard at all.

Q: Is Game X ap2.5 or not?
A: Good question! Sadly, there appears to be no way of testing for this other than just attempting to boot the game on the new dash, the catch is that this will almost certainly flag you for a ban.
It would appear that all future titles will be ap2.5, however for the moment, there will be a mixture of ap2.5 and non-ap2.5 games. For example, Fable III is definitely ap2.5, but it appears as though COD: Black Ops is not, despite COD releasing and being mastered long after Fable III. As with anything, you run a risk going on live at all and you run a bigger risk while all this is still being researched - if you want to protect yourself from being banned, stay offline and don't update until the new LT+ firmware comes out.

Q: When will iXtreme LT+ be released?
A: There is no ETA and asking for an ETA ANYWHERE (IRC, forums, etc.) will just get you flamed and banned. Do not ask, it will come when it comes.
**ipt forums

Will Update....
dougie avatar
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 07:57
Quality thread thanks m8 ..
reno.99999 avatar
Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 05:27
chat log update, before Christmas is what they are saying. update is above
reno.99999 avatar
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 15:09
It's expected to be released within the next 5 hours. So we'll just wait and see!

For BenQ + LiteOn.
(Not for the slim yet...)

Chat log updated as well, keeping fingers crossed, much extra money for Christmas, got peeps calling everyday to re-flash.
reno.99999 avatar
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 00:39
LT+ Firmware is out for 360 FATS: Lite-on, Benqs. I will post a torrent on here for both firmwares, jungleflasher, and imgburn. They are all freeware but since everyone asks it will be up. No more bullshit ap2.5

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